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Mr V Ndlovu IFP noted the numerous virements and asked who condoned them and what process was followed. What was the problem, were members being bought and was it related to whether they received good salaries or not? Who did the investigations into corruption?
Did they have psychologists dealing with matter and was it stress related or did it involve corruption. The Committee had not seen any evidence of this system. His opinion was that the police were arming criminals. What were they doing to stop this? Mr George expressed his concern with the National Commissioner's statement that some police stations had no toilets. How many police stations in the country did not have this basic facility?
Septic tanks could be provided at a reasonable cost and it was unacceptable for members not to have toilets. Mr George said that LT-Gen Mofomme had reported that many targets had not been met in the building programme. These were targets that SAPS had set themselves and the explanation given for not reaching them was unsatisfactory.
A large percentage had been condoned and this had to be accounted for. The Chairperson referred to the building projects and the discrepancy in the Strategic Plan and the Annual Report on the number of projects.
She queried what the status was of Roodeplaat Dog Unit. She asked what the cost implications were for all the projects that were not completed. What were the estimated costs and the projected completion dates. How much had been spent thus far and where would they be getting the funds. What was being done about structures that were standing empty and being vandalised? The Chairperson asked about their procurement processes and supply chain management and how long it took to supply police stations with their requirements.
There were complaints about the time it took. Quotations were supplied and expired and they had to repeat the process of getting quotes. Who was accountable for procurement in the Department and could they give clarity on the supply chain management. What was the role of the whole Supply Chain Management division? Did they have a procurement policy that was coordinated? Who were the Bid Evaluators? What was the authority of the Divisional Commissioner in the supply chain management? The Chairperson asked for the Committee to be supplied with a list of senior appointments made where posts had not been advertised, the reasons why people were appointed in such a manner and the reasons why other people were not given a fair chance to apply.
Gen Cele responded broadly on the questions raised. They had explained that there were 42 facilities but the list had to be cleaned up as some projects had been completed and had to be removed from the list. There were problems with land and local government and environmental issues in the urban areas. They found it easier in the rural areas, there were still environmental issues but there was more cooperation in the rural areas. They were working on alternative methods in terms of the supply chain management with DPW.
He noted that there were 26 TRT units around the country. There were meant to be 50 members in each unit but there was a high rate of failure of candidates for the units. They had recruited in KZN but only 41 had passed. This highly trained unit was very effective and they were also training other specialised units to deal with stock theft for example.
They were considering station specialised units at police stations where there was high reporting of incidents. He addressed the issue of the 42 police stations on the building programme and noted that nine of the projects had already been completed in previous financial years.
The Chairperson said that this was not according to the Strategic Plan and noted that there were implications behind this. She noted that the figure was thus 33 building projects Lt-Gen Kruser could not account for why they had been reflected there. He had not been there when this had occurred. He could supply a breakdown of the cost implications in writing.
Was the strategic plan aligned with the budget? Lt Gen Kruser replied that he was not sure if the strategic plan had been aligned with the budget. The budget allocation was R68 million and R51 million had been spent at that stage. The feedback they had received from DPW had been that there were technicalities relating to the construction of the building. DPW had to take responsibility if additional funding was required. The Chairperson queried the enormous cost.
Lt Gen Kruser replied that the dog school college in Pretoria West was in a residential area and had to move and the new facility would be two facilities in one. The new facility was in a rural area and there were additional infrastructural costs.
Mr Ndlovu noted that if it was in a deep rural area, they would have to provide the infrastructure for electricity and water. Ms Kohler-Barnard was concerned about contractors going bankrupt. Who was choosing companies that could go bankrupt?
Was this Public Works? She said that they should have the Minister of Public Works there but it was difficult to find her. Why were they not utilizing reputable companies? The Chairperson said the Minister of Public Works was definitely available to attend meetings. The Committee meeting she had to attend previously had been postponed. Mr Ramatlakane was concerned about over-expenditure and said the Accounting Officer should deal with this.
He noted that there had to be an insurance cover when buildings were being constructed for protection if the construction company went bankrupt. Was there such an arrangement to protect the State's financial interests?
Mr Schneemann asked if there were checks and balances when a tender was awarded as there had been a number of incidents where contractors had not completed projects. The Chairperson asked how they established if the costs had been inflated.
The processes of insurance, contractors and quotations and all the problems with buildings involved Public Works.
Mr George commented that the money came from the budget of the police, whether it was done by Public Works or not, and they had the responsibility to see that the necessary checks and balances were in place. Gen Cele said that they should not restructure government and if they were told that Public Works was the custodian of the buildings, then they accepted that. They were having meetings with Public Works and the skills and knowledge to run the projects resided with them, not the Police.
He hoped that they would not be moving in the direction where the police would be blamed for work that had been done by other departments who had full responsibility and authority over what was done. The Chairperson commented that Public Works could not really impose their conditions when the budget was coming from SAPS and that was why they were querying the amount of R million.
They wanted to be assured that the cost was correct Lt Gen Kruser said that for every project, they engaged quantity surveyors who established if there was value for money according to the accepted norms. That particular contract had been signed before he was there. Gen Cele said that there were new mechanisms that had been put in place. He noted that some of the building phases dragged on but ultimately authority lay with their sister department, Public Works.
The Chairperson observed that it was an old project that had cost more than half a billion rand. Lt-Gen Kruser said there were mechanisms in place for all the projects and they attended site meetings. He indicated the projects that had been completed. A project that was not completed was Letsitele Police Station, which was a SAPS project and they were expecting it to be completed at the end of the current financial year.
Ms Van Wyk asked if the projects had been completed within the timeframes and within cost or was there over expenditure.
The allocation had been R5,5 million but they had spent R6,3 million to complete the project as there had been challenges. Ms Van Wyk said that he had given them the total cost and over expenditure for the DPW projects and there should be consistency in reporting. They wanted a clearer picture.
Lt-Gen Kruser replied that the projection for Bisho had been R7,5 million and the total expenditure had been R29 million. He supplied figures for some of the other projects. Gen Cele noted that 33 of the projects were under investigation by the Special Investigating Unit SIU and he had been informed that progress was being made. They would know what was happening in the following month. Lt-Gen Kruser said that charges had been laid against officials and one had been found guilty the previous week.
Two colonels had been charged and five captains. They had replaced all the brigadiers and they were taking action at all levels to improve the situation. Mr George asked if he knew how many police stations did not have basic facilities such as toilets. Ms Van Wyk commented that issues only became issues when raised by the Committee through its reports.
She appreciated what the National Commissioner was striving to do, but SAPS members present had been there and had allowed things to happen that should not have happened. Were the cases being investigated, building projects that were coming from ? He could not understand how projects could take seven years to complete. Ms Kohler-Barnard said that it had just been revealed that ten people were under investigation. How long had this been going on and how many millions had been lost?
Extraordinary amounts were spent on police buildings. People without the expertise were being placed in positions they had no right to be in. She found it inexcusable and asked if the people had been suspended and if it was in the Annual Report. Were they hiding the evidence? Mr Schneemann referred to the various categories of police stations. He requested an update on the costing for police station building projects being undertaken in the current and subsequent financial year as that would assist the Committee to monitor costs.
The Chairperson noted that a review of the Strategic Plan could not be avoided. There would be a progress report that would indicate they were addressing their challenges. Maj Gen Mantsi said that there were police stations in dire need of basic infrastructure such as water, electricity and sewerage. They were exploring alternative sources of electricity. Generators and mini sub-stations were options and they had a breakdown of the costs.
Lt-Gen Kruser said that the total budget for this purpose in the current financial year, was R53,6 million. This would be utilized where there were problems with municipal services, especially in the rural areas.
The Chairperson asked if the R53,6 million would be sufficient. Lt-Gen Kruser said that they would be doing the most critical police stations in the first round and they had budgeted for it. Gen Cele noted that they had identified the need by going to the police stations and there were desperate situations. The Chairperson asked who was responsible for procurement and supply chain management in the Department. The Chairperson asked about the supply chain management. Lt-Gen Mofomme replied that supply chain management provided the guidelines which were in line with the Treasury Regulations.
There was a supply chain management manual which stipulated exactly which processes had to be followed. Irregular expenditure occurred when the regulations were not followed. There were also Bid Evaluation Committees. The Chairperson asked about the role of the Provincial Commissioners. She repeated that there were complaints from police stations that quotations expired and some suppliers were no longer willing to give quotations.
Who was ultimately accountable? Lt-Gen Mofomme said it depended on what they wanted to procure and she asked Maj Gen Mokwena, Head of Procurement, to explain the process.
Maj Gen Mokwena said that from the time a request was received to when the bid was awarded, took 90 days. This included 21 working days for the advertisement process. Items above R had to be approved by the Divisional Commissioner. In the case of vehicles, there were transversal contracts that were awarded by National Treasury and cost effectiveness was taken into account. The Chairperson asked if they had a procurement policy.
Maj Gen Mokwena replied that they did. There could be only one procurement policy according to the PFMA. The Chairperson asked what the role of the National Commissioner was. They had been informed that all bids had to be checked by the National Commissioner.
How did this impact on the length of time? There were serious delays and she wanted to know how long the process took. Currently the intention was to equip all vehicles with AVL units. In each cluster there was a person responsible for drawing reports on all the vehicles and computers had been provided for this purpose. They could draw reports to indicate the location of vehicles at any particular time. Mr George asked if there had been any improvement at this stage, after the rollout, or was it too early to make an assessment.
Gen Haaseman said it was still too early but there had been an increase in the number of verbal warnings. Ms Mocumi said that the system had been implemented for longer than a year and yet they could not report on its effectiveness. There were vehicles at national level but most vehicles were at police stations. To assess the functionality of the system why was it not implemented at police station level first? Police vehicles were spotted in questionable places when they should be at police stations or at the scenes of crime.
When they went to police stations, nobody could say where the vehicles were at a particular time. She had received a report from Pietermaritzburg that police vehicles from the Dog Unit and Crime Stop unit had been used to tow the boats of members to the dam over the weekend.
The movement of vehicles were monitored and he received reports and they were ensuring that the system was properly utilized and monitored. The Chairperson enquired about the costs involved and what the impact of the AVL system was in curbing the misuse of vehicles. There should have been a report from the pilot project that indicated if the misuse of vehicles was being eradicated. A drop in petrol usage, cars being used in the early hours of the morning and fewer maintenance costs would be indicators.
It was necessary to establish the impact and effectiveness of the system. She asked for the timelines when the AVL would be fully rolled out and fully operational. There was thus a reduction in costs as people were aware that they were being monitored.
They were training Commanders how to use the system effectively. A new mechanism would indicate when vehicles needed to be serviced and this would improve the management of vehicles. He said they would supply a progress report shortly. The Chairperson asked if the ten officers under investigation had been suspended. Who were they? Lt-Gen Kruser replied that he did not have the details.
The Chairperson enquired about the resignations he had mentioned. In reply to the Chairperson asking what the charges were, Lt-Gen Kruser said it was for various expenditure on buildings in Lt Gen Kruser addressed the personnel to vehicle ratio and the distribution of vehicles.
They were having discussions with provinces on the matter to ensure that it was effectively done, especially for detectives. The purchased helicopter was paid for in the first quarter of the past financial year. It had a dual purpose and was used for operational crime prevention as well.
Mr George said that the question was how the aircraft had been budgeted for. Gen Schutte replied there had been foreign exchange increases and over-expenditure was unfortunate. Gen Schutte said that Lt-Gen Stander would respond on the departmental management and the increases in personnel costs for retirements. They had foreseen retirements but early retirements could not be predicted. Gen Schutte said that R89 million had been spent on legal costs.
This and contingent liabilities were reflected in an annexure to the financial statements in the Annual Report. Gen Schutte said that HR expenditure for basic training was R million for the new enlistments, which included food and learning materials.
Gen Schutte said that the full report on irregular expenditure was in a note in the Annual Report. These were the two major contributors to the increase in irregular expenditure. Ms A van Wyk asked if the condonement had gone via Treasury? She also enquired about the status of disciplinary hearings. Gen Schutte replied that the condonements were done by the Bid Adjudication Committee according to the prescripts and the specific accounting standards on irregular expenditure.
Disciplinary steps were taken in 43 incidents but he did not have the details of the outcomes of the cases but it could be provided. Irregular expenditure emanated from non-compliance with procurement prescripts especially where it related to the procurement transactions.
Non-compliance with prescripts in the awarding of a purchase or the awarding of a bid constituted an irregular expenditure. There was a specific reporting procedure that had to be followed when irregular expenditure was identified. It had to be put in a register and the Bid Adjudication had to take a decision and make recommendations. In terms of the recovery of funds, if the prescripts were not followed but value for the money expended was received, then a recovery could not be made.
In the case of vehicles, for example, they could not have the benefit of the vehicle and a recovery. Recovery came into effect when an irregular procurement expense contributed to a higher price or to an unwanted item. Under fruitless expenditure, recovery was possible as normally there was a debtor and the loss could be recovered. Ms Van Wyk noted that disciplinary action had been taken but there were still questions. She referred to the Police Day and noted the payment for entertainment.
They still needed answers as the increase in irregular expenditure was huge given the fact that the target for Victim Support Centres had not been achieved.
If the PFMA was not complied with, there had to be recourse. What steps had been taken against officials? Gen Schutte said they would provide details to the Committee on the status of the disciplinary action taken. Maj Gen Mokwena responded on the condonements, saying the reason they had condoned the expenditure was that in all instances the State had received value for money.
He reiterated what Gen Schutte had said - they could not make a recovery as the State had not incurred any losses. The Chairperson asked if he was saying that the huge amounts spent on accommodation and meals happened properly and that the problem was that they had not followed the correct procurement processes. Maj Gen Mokwena responded that this was 'exactly' so and that if his memory served him well that was for the World Cup security deployment of SAPS members.
Mr Ndlovu cautioned Maj Gen Mokwena to be sure of what he was saying regarding the condonements as he could incriminate himself. If there were condonements, it raised questions. Costs of R87 million had been recovered and this was why members wanted Gen Mokwena to be sure of what he was saying. The Chairperson added that if it was correct, why were they investigating? And why had the Office of the A-G expressed itself so strongly on the matter?
Maj-Gen Mokwena repeated that the State had received value for money in all irregular expenditure condoned by the Bid Adjudication Committee. The Chairperson said that according to the Annual Report, irregular expenditure had been R76,1 million and everything had been condoned except R5,6 million which meant that more than R70 million had been condoned. The question was, what were they investigating and were people charged for the expenditure that was not condoned.
The Minister had reported cost recovery as indicated by Ms Van Wyk. There were huge amount for expenditure for artists and performers, catering, communications, advertising and others which had all been condoned. Mr George commented that if they were saying that in all transactions the State had not lost.
Who determined if the state had received value for money? Were they saying that there was no limit and that they could spend all the budget as irregular expenditure as long as it was condoned and the state received value for money? What was the sense of having procedures?
Maj Gen Mokwena replied that when people were investigated for irregular expenditure, they would go and find out what happened. In all cases where the state had received value for money, procurement processes had not been completely followed. Ms Van Wyk said that the explanations were getting worse and Maj Gen Mokwena had to speak to the issues in the report and the actual events.
What were the reasons they could not go to tender or get quotations and why were procedures not followed? Maj Gen Mokwena said that quotations were received and financial authority obtained, the end user was paid and the expenditure was used in the interest of the State.
They had only condoned cases where procurement authority had not been obtained. Mr Ndlovu said that the A-G's findings indicated that three quotations had not been obtained and other matters such as poor planning. He agreed with Mr George on the implications of the way condonements were being done. He added to Ms Van Wyk's request for him to address the issues in the documents.
The Chairperson addressed the National Commissioner and said the Committee did not understand or accept the condonement of the irregular expenditure. They required a better explanation and wanted to know exactly what had happened including why it had been so easy to condone R70 million. Ms Kohler-Barnard said if the Committee condoned it, it would happen again and they needed to know what had happened.
What were the repercussions and who was being held accountable? Lt-Gen Mofomme elaborated on the procurement process, saying if there was a need for procurement and if they went ahead without following all the procedures, that would constitute irregular expenditure.
Departmental steps were taken against the persons responsible for not following procedures and this was what was being investigated. Previously people were just given verbal warnings but it was being treated more seriously, currently.
The Chairperson said they were talking about R76 million and she was questioning the huge amounts that had been spent such as R11,9 million on artists and performers. Further huge amounts were spent on accommodation, meals, transport, contractors, catering, inventory, communications and advertising.
She said it had become a practice and a way of doing things and this was unacceptable. What motivated people to accumulate so much irregular expenditure? SAPS had a huge budget of R53,5 billion and it seemed this made the amount for irregular expenditure appear less.
Comparatively speaking, even the amount of irregular expenditure not condoned was millions and could run a division in other departments. She felt that it could mean that every cent had to be accounted for, including the cost of the food parcels that had been distributed, which she heard not everybody had received.
She noted this was their Annual Report about things that had happened and they should not be thinking about the answers. She could not understand the reluctance to give the answers as they were the people responsible. Mr George said that some of the things that emerged could be very detrimental to the Department. Maj Gen Mokwena's explanation for the condonements was flawed and it was being abused as there were no checks and balances. This could lead to allegations of fraud and investigations by the Hawks.
Ms Kohler-Barnard said that R11, 9 million had been spent on artists and performers to appear for a few hours on for Police Day. She did not believe that severe action had been taken as had been reported and she felt that management was not taking the issues seriously. Mr Ndlovu said that he supported the Chairperson's call for the meeting to move on as they were not getting answers.
She requested that the National Commissioner provide a detailed report on the Irregular Expenditure including a report on the Bid Adjudication Committee. The retirements figure was including the 19 people whose services were terminated in terms of Section 35 of the Police Services Act which provided for this under the rules of the Government Pension Fund.
No costs were incurred by SAPS except severance pay costs and this amounted to R31 million for the 19 persons. In terms of Promotions, Lt-Gen Stander stated that there had been few promotions in the financial year under review. The reason was because of new internal rank structures from 1 April They had to go back to the Bargaining Council where they had to re-negotiate their promotion policy. That had been signed in the first half of and in the current financial year there had been 5, promotions.
Lt-Gen Stander said that the increased costs for sick leave related to sick leave where medical certificates had been provided and the increase in the number of sick leave days allowed and thus the monetary value had also increased. They were monitoring the prevalence of sick leave at station level. Interventions were in place to see that sick leave was being properly managed and a decrease in sick leave had already been apparent. Ms Van Wyk requested specific details of Senior Managers who took retirement under Section 35 as she had information about persons who retired under section 35 but who did not fit the criteria.
Ms Stander explained that the statistics reflected a percentage of the reasons why people left. Ms Mocumi asked if there were strategies for the retention of staff.
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